
In the second part of his interview with Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee, TMP editor Chuka Umunna puts to her the accusation that she contradicts herself, asks her to justify her claim that the Brown government has left social democracy for dead, discusses with her the electoral viability of the equality and fairness agenda she promotes, finds out what she thinks of all-black shortlists and invites her to speculate on which “young turk” will succeed the Prime Minister.
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CU: Some people say you are a bit all over the place and that you often contradict yourself. For example, on the one hand you claim that the Blair government was one of the best, on the other hand you were highly critical of Blair the man. How do you marry those two approaches?
PT: …..well both things are true. We haven’t had a lot of good governments since the war. I’ve done two books with David Walker [the Guardian’s social affairs editor] assessing Labour’s first and second terms, in which we added up everything that has been done in each department, and it is a pretty impressive record. The amount of money spent, the improvements, the way hospitals, schools and open spaces - everything - just looks so much better! We forget how utterly run down things were in 1997 and how bad it was.
Most of Labour’s ideas have been very good. Most of the things they have done have worked, though some have not and not enough has been spent on the public sector (the result of Swedish ambitions on close to American levels of taxation). I supported Blair, despite the fact of being passionately against the Iraq war right from the start of it. I supported him through the last election because I thought that dumping him and putting Brown in beforehand would have been the wrong thing to do and Blair would probably win – he did.
But after that I thought he ought to go very quickly – quit while he was ahead, having won three elections. The time he stayed was incredibly painful after the 2005 election, at which point I was turning very anti-Blair but I never moved to a position where I was saying “everything the government does is rubbish”. I simply said that Blair should go, the war is a calamity and he ought to realise he’s not in a position any more to be inspiring or to produce new policies.
CU: Were you ever inspired by Tony Blair in a big way?
PT: Erm…well I suppose by things he did, yes. And you couldn’t but catch the enthusiasm of ‘97. What they pulled off between ’94 and ’97 was pretty fantastic. It was pretty amazing what they’d created, it was a huge success and it went on to do a great many very good things.
But there were a lot of things I didn’t like about Blair’s approach. I didn’t like him not being able to speak about inequality and not caring about doing something about the rich. I didn’t like the whole choice agenda and the privatisations, but that was only a fairly small part of what his government did. We’ve had a very competent 10 year government – better than anything since Attlee.
I don’t think any of that is contradictory. It is possible to say how well the government has done, whilst highlighting the opportunities they have missed.
CU: What about Brown? What is your assessment of his performance so far? Two weeks ago you were bemoaning the fact that Labour’s leaders had left social democracy for dead.
PT: I think Brown has decided – and Blair had done so already – that he is not a social democrat (they had both stopped being socialists a long time ago). I think what you see now is a very decent, “centre” government.
CU: When do you think Brown decided to become a “centrist”?
PT: I think its been creeping up on him. Afterall, he has never called himself a social democrat. I think he has a very strong moral conscience and a very strong wish to do the right thing. He’s a thoroughly decent man but I think he’s made an accommodation with a sort of capitalist truism: he thinks there is nothing you can do about globalisation except educate people enough to be able to cope with it; that government doesn’t have power to interfere with the market much beyond a bit of regulation here and there. He thinks you should have very flexible labour markets and that all you can do is “swim with the tide”, hope for the best and keep people in work. He doesn‘t really think you can stand up and say “this [inequality] is too much, this is disgusting”.
CU: But what about his 2003 “best when we are boldest, best when we are Labour” speech or his 2004 address to the Compass national conference, pointing out the limits to the market? Both sounded social democratic…
PT: …but that was when he wasn’t in power….
CU: … he was the Chancellor of the Exchequer!?
PT: The impression that Gordon and his people consistently gave was that he would be, if he could, further to the left. A lot of people at the time said “don’t be deluded, New Labour is their joint project”. I think that has been the case. Although their styles are different, the emphasises different and the things they care most about are different, basically they have made the same pact - they think there is not much you can do about the market or capitalism, and you had better just bow down in front of the City.
I think Brown subscribes to this view point for economic reasons – I don’t think its just a case of political cowardice. I think he thinks you cannot disturb the market and if you try to change it, it’ll just fall apart in your hands and you will destroy everything. I think he genuinely believes what we have now is necessary. For example, Brown admires Alan Greenspan [the former head of the U.S Federal Reserve] and thinks Greenspan is correct in his thinking, but Greenspan is very far to the right by any social democratic standard – Greenspan thought it was okay for Bush to make those huge tax cuts for the rich which resulted in quite serious economic trouble for the U.S.
What makes Brown a centrist is that he thinks you can be entirely up for the capitalist project, absolutely not for taxing people more (particularly the rich who would otherwise flee) on the one hand, and on the other hand you can try to do your best to help the people that get left behind. Read the rest of this entry »